New York Times on the Web Forums Science
Russian military leaders have expressed concern about US plans
for a national missile defense system. Will defense technology be
limited by possibilities for a strategic imbalance? Is this just SDI
all over again?
(9716 previous messages)
lunarchick
- 08:00pm Sep 22, 2001 EST (#9717
of 9726) lunarchick@www.com
Nauru - The boat people - today learn about the WTC .. one
responded to our reporter re Afghanistan Six thousand dead .. in
disbelief .. through the camp wire they ask again for comfirmation.
One said:
"If there is war - that will be the last war -
won't it?"
The journo responded
"No. I hope there will be many more wars to
come!"
A third of the boat people (mainly Iraqi) refuse to disembark
onto that pacific island paradise - Nauru. They set out for
Australia and want to go There/Here.
Australia looks for more isolated pacific refugee processing
island centers - for the UN to manage - at Australian expense.
rshowalter
- 08:06pm Sep 22, 2001 EST (#9718
of 9726) Robert Showalter
showalte@macc.wisc.edu
lunarchick
9/22/01 7:35pm
There's good reason to be afraid that people in power will twist
ideas to do what suits them - - and often do so feeling "righteous"
while they're doing it.
I think your comment that America is "paralyzed" is interesting -
- - that is only likely to happen when people, underneath a verneer
of security - - are very full of conflicts and fears - so that their
confidence is fragile.
Americans, competent as we are, have been lied to so much, have
told so many lies, and are so full of "defenses" and "fictions" that
the nation's emotions are surprisingly fragile.
Truth's safer, and a lot more resiliant. Though finding
the truth can be hard work, sometimes.
The cost of lies accepted is intellectual and emotional scar
tissue -- and tremendous fear, when the time comes that change
has to happen, and it becomes necessary to trust what you
"know."
As afraid as American has shown itself to be - - there's more
than a ~ 7,000 death problem.
Are we really so fragile that a loss of .0028% of
our population, in an unexpected way, hurts us so?
Apparently we are.
Other nations are sympathetic, but no doubt they have other
thoughts, as well.
There are two conclusions that seem fairly clear:
. The first is that we've got no business
threatening other people with nuclear destruction, as we've been
doing for fifty years.
. The second is that we have insecurities that
are very deep, and very wrenching, that come from problems right
here at home.
That means we have some work to do.
To establish real security.
Some key things we have to fear aren't hiding in Afghanistan.
lunarchick
- 08:12pm Sep 22, 2001 EST (#9719
of 9726) lunarchick@www.com
loss of .0028% of our population
Can you separate the wheat from the chaff? Can you pull out the
'world people' separate from the US people who died?
I'm guessing the figure is inclusive. Little winnowing has been
done.
Eighty countries have suffered people losses from within that
percentage.
The world is very very interconnected - especially at the nerve
centers of world cities.
In the world stats within that percentage - Pakistan suffered the
greatest loss in NY on Tragic Tuesday.
lunarchick
- 08:36pm Sep 22, 2001 EST (#9720
of 9726) lunarchick@www.com
American former congress leader NewtG was asked* by http://news.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/
.. why he thought America wrt foreign policy was hated. His response
put it down to 'fanatics'. He didn't want to rethink Am Foreign
Policy to Isreal or SaudiArabia. He said the aim of the region was
to drive the WEST out.
? Grabbing energy resource ?
A poll in Pakistan shows 70% of pop have deep seated feelings
against Am. The Pakistan leader is surprised by this. America -
"isn't there a world VOICE that might help calm Pakistan" - i have
violence. Pakistan don't want to see dead Afghanies in body bags!
The Taliban say they've shot down an Am_non-piloted spy plane ...
did they? Seems these planes are visible?
transcript later today
rshowalter
- 08:47pm Sep 22, 2001 EST (#9721
of 9726) Robert Showalter
showalte@macc.wisc.edu
In my opinion, the great majority of the horror and tragedy in
the world, and the end of the world, would be averted, without
people being any smarter or more disciplined than they are, if there
was merely "ordinary competence" -- and a rule change.
When the consequences of getting facts straight really
matter - - - checking should be morally forcing.
Not such a big change, in a sense.
A huge change, in another sense. Because it would question our
"right to lie."
Make that one change, I believe, and people could solve their own
problems. Not perfectly. But well enough to go about their animal
business, without so much wrenching, tragic ugliness, and without
the current probability of the end of the world.
rshowalter
- 08:50pm Sep 22, 2001 EST (#9722
of 9726) Robert Showalter
showalte@macc.wisc.edu
The change would require some considerable modifications of the
procedures and rules, written and unwritten, at The New York
Times , and changes that might be even more substantial
elsewhere.
I believe that, with careful bookeeping, one could show that
"lies and evasions" in human discourse are between ten and
twenty times more frequent than people are now assuming.
With that little point corrected, a great deal could be sorted
out.
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