jorian319 - 04:11pm Mar 20, 2003 EST 10270 http://forums

jorian319 - 04:11pm Mar 20, 2003 EST 10270 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.uabta6VI5h1.0@.f28e622/11816

IMO it is equally regrettable that those who denounce our attack on Iraq are called traitors or "pro-Saddam", and that those who condone it are called "pro-war". I am sure that the vast majority of Americans who are opposed to our attack on Iraq are not traitorous in any sense, and I am absolutely certain that almost nobody supporting the attack is "pro-war".

These rhetorical devices cause people who could benefit from unity, to talk past each other and turn differences in persective into false ethical gulfs.

"How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? Nobody knows - it hasn't been tried."

jorian319 - 06:39pm Mar 20, 2003 EST (# 10277 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.uabta6VI5h1.0@.f28e622/11823

Nice posts, Robert. I, too get irritated by those who simultaneously abdicate responsibilities and criticize those who take them on.

jorian319 - 09:37am Mar 23, 2003 EST (# 10351 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.uabta6VI5h1.0@.f28e622/11897

Idiot robkettenberg is such a coward - he comes here and spams his fringe-wacko crap, but can't hang around to defend it. Strictly a hit-and-run nutbar. Seems he has identified the fact that NYT is too hapless to moderate its own forums... what a shame. "

jorian319 - 02:37am Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10505 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.Aty3aeOv6SR.0@.f28e622/12054

Why are a few - or several hundred - Iraqi children hurt in this war worth so much more than the THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN PER MONTH that have been allowed to starve to death EVERY MONTH FOR YEARS in Iraq? Is it "moral high ground" to stand back and allow them to be viciously "Saddamized" as if the are no more than SH's property?

Not to single out poor Saddam - he is really no worse than Bobby Mugabe and a solid handful of other despots around the globe. But I don't think we need to lament poor Saddam's fate at the hands of the evil aggressor. And we ought to go after the rest of his ilk as well, just not so conspicuously. Let them die of "mysterious causes" or be victims of "random violence" rather than announce our intentions and take flak from the rest of the world because of the tunnel vision of alarmists like the one(s) on this board, who are so easily played into a frenzy.

jorian319 - 02:41am Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10506 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.Aty3aeOv6SR.0@.f28e622/12055

I bet alarmst would sing a bery differnent tune if {S}HE were being fed feet-first into a shredder.

Negative of MR Showalter:

jorian319 - 10:29am Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10533 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12082

I move that we destroy Saddam and all evil dictators who rule by the sword!

Would that we could do so covertly, to avoid the corruption of credit-takers and the reprisals of those who stand to benefit from the continuance of brutality.

Some things never change, though. Apparently the running Rshow sermon of this forum is one of them. I rarely read those posts, because he (I think of Ichic as his alter-ego, and suspect they are the same person) rarely responds directly to anyone else, and he regularly relies on such dubious sources as The Guardian. It looks like a loop-tape for all its repetition.

Alarmst is another story - I scan his/her posts occasionally just to reconfirm lock-step conformance to the popular impression being marketed by the global left. Always hoping to see an evolving attitude, usually disappointed.

jorian319 - 11:42am Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10535 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12084

For the anti-war idealogues:

http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

Poignantly highlights the moral bankruptcy of those who would turn a blind eye to the unimaginable atrocities perpetrated upon the Iraqi people by the dictator with whom you would prefer to negotiate.

Quoted by Showalter in 14753 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/16464

requoted by jorian in 14761 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/16472 :

jorian319 - 01:27pm Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10538 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12087

Robert, in the aggregate, we are most concerned about ourselves - not the Iraqi people or some abstract class of "victims of oppression".

With that in mind, I submit that our government is currently undertaking a metamophosis that will transform it from an insidious force eroding our rights to an aggressive monster conspicuously and unashamedly devouring those rights under "patriot act" type banners.

I submit that this is a clear and present danger that - to Americans - dwarfs the dangers of Iraqi dictators, terrorism in general, nuclear/chemical/biological threat and asteroid impact combined. In fact, the immediate danger to our well being may be exceeded only by the danger of fast-food.

The REALLY alarming thing about this threat is that it mirrors a process that has been seen repeatedly throughout history, and history has shown that it will proceed in a one-way march that can only be halted by violent revolution.

Won't that be fun for the kids?

It is unfortunate indeed that this war in Iraq will serve so well to accelerate the downfall of this once-great nation. I think that is what we get for staking exclusive claim to the "high road" and not stooping to covert - or overt - elimination of despots. Instead we elevate them to a high position of attention, try to rally the public and spend a hundred billion on an attack, and every other available dime to enable the revocation of our constitution in the name of Homeland Security.

jorian319 - 07:55am Mar 27, 2003 EST (# 10550 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12100

Ja Herr Kommandata, "defending the slaughter of innocent people in order to control the resources of a third world nation" is exactly what you do railing against efforts to get rid of Sodom.

Or were you totally unaware that Hussein and his chraming kids have brutally murdered and estimated ONE AND A HALF MILLION people? I guess ignorance IS bliss after all.

While you're shedding your delusions, remember that we could have bought every single drop of Iraqi oil for the next eight years, jsut for the price of the single appropriation in fron to congress.

jorian319 - 10:32am Mar 27, 2003 EST (# 10559 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12109

Alarmst, it is indeed regrettable that the media dilute the facts when it comes to "collateral damage", i.e. the tragic death and maiming of innocent civilians. We should all be cognizant of this extremely high price of our actions. The big problem is that there is every reason to believe that if it suits the purpose du jour, the SH regime will/does murder any number of people without a second thought - if they think they can blame it on us.

jorian319 - 11:10am Mar 27, 2003 EST (# 10562 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12112

In fact, almarst, it now seems likely that the residential neighborhood in question in Baghdad was in fact struck by and Iraqi SAM that went astray (maybe accidentlly-on-purpose). If that is the case, we will never know for sure, since it will be "cleaned up" by the time US troops get there. If, OTOH, it was US ordnance that did the damage, you can expect fragmentary "proof" to be gloatingly flaunted to the media by a delighted Sodom.

jorian319 - 11:32am Mar 27, 2003 EST (# 10565 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12115

It will take a lot for me to believe what US-British are doing in Iraq has anything to do with wishes of Iraqi people.

I think it is always healthy to be skeptical. I sincerely hope you get "a lot" to support that notion. It won't be soon in coming, even under the best scenario. And I am sure that to whatever extent the interests of the Iraqi people are in the hearts of the US/Brit leaders, it is subservient and tertiary to

a) their own personal interests

b) their countries' interests (as interpreted by them)

That's human, and just the way it is, always has been and always will be.

jorian319 - 10:44am Mar 28, 2003 EST (# 10628 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12178

Alarmst - thank you for boldly clarifying your position. I doubt that many - if any here would say that they are against the things you (believably) say you stand for.

The means to those ends are in question, as is the forthrightness of the US administration. I may decry the invocation of war to "solve" the problems of the Iraqi people, but the realities of US interests, Saddam's history of brutality, the global climate of terrorism and other factors combine to make me think our current course may be the best available option - for now. I fear for the aftermath, where I can see our own freedoms eroded to non-existence in the name of security. In fact, the average Iraqi will surely benefit as the average American suffers.

It is disappointing that it came to this. IMHO, we could have - should have - taken this regime down through covert means a long time ago. And the same goes for all the other brutal oppressers we can identify. Screw international convention/politeness/tolerance of despots.

jorian319 - 02:36pm Mar 28, 2003 EST (# 10648 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12198

"Time for a pre-emtive precision palacial bombing on that 'sleeping' tyrant?"

Years overdue. (just MHO)

jorian319 - 01:01pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10712 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12262

Looks like an opportunity for a betting pool here...

I think Rshow is correct in the dcougar and almarst are seeing two different, and very possible, outcomes while looking at the same thing. There is no way to know at this point which of those outcomes will be the better guess. But I have a fin for dcougar's.

jorian319 - 01:26pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10714 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12264

The proof will come. Eventually. Hopefully not in a years time full of death and destruction.

Amen to that, Almarst!

Like they say in sports, if they knew who was going to win, they wouldn't play the game.

The interesting thing to me is the severity of the dichotomy of views - it almost seems sure that one of two extremes will come to pass. The bad is very, very bad indeed, and the good holds all hope for the future of global civilization. Things are rarely so cut-and-dried in real life, but this looks to be an exception.

rshow55 - 01:31pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10715 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?54@28.SmjJav5l6jX.2222496@.f28e622/12265http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?54@28.SmjJav5l6jX.2222496@.f28e622/12265
Can we do a better job of finding truth? YES. Click "rshow55" for some things Lchic and I have done and worked for on this thread.

Experience shows that good results are harder to achieve than bad ones. Usually, only a relatively few things work - in combination and sequence - carefully. There are lots of ways for things to screw up.

But a lot of careful planning and work has been done.

A lot of people are watching.

rshow55 - 01:45pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10716 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?54@28.SmjJav5l6jX.2222496@.f28e622/12266
Can we do a better job of finding truth? YES. Click "rshow55" for some things Lchic and I have done and worked for on this thread.

Jorian's assumption that

" it almost seems sure that one of two extremes will come to pass."

illustrates one of the most common fallacies that people make.

Who says things are that well under control, or understood?

jorian319 - 03:07pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10717 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12267

Robert, I guess you missed:

Things are rarely so cut-and-dried in real life

IMHO this does appear a likely exception. "Under control" and "understood" are out of the question. But very very bad and very very good outcomes are not.

jorian319 - 03:47pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10718 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12268

Reality bites and human shields are wounded http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6192399%5E25717,00.html

The latest human shield to emerge is the Rev Kenneth Joseph, an American, who said his trip "shocked me back to reality".

He had helped to secretly film 14 hours of uncensored video of Iraqi civilians, some of whom Joseph said "told me they would commit suicide if the American bombing didn't start".

"They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny."

"I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad -- a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel at night," he said.

"He started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime . . . and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family. It scared the hell out of me."

Another taxi driver had told Pepper "all Iraqi people want this war", and weren't afraid of the bombing.

And the driver asked his six passengers, all human shields: "How much did Saddam pay you to come?"

One of those six passengers was Melbourne's Jake Nowakowski, who last week returned home, admitting he and his fellow activists "were being naive".

jorian319 - 08:30pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10728 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12278

What happens if they will face a deadly determination of a people who are fighting for their homeland?

Not likely. In every report I've heard of an interview with Iraqi citizens where an enforcer of the regime was not present, people there not only can't wait to get rid of Saddam and his murdering henchmen, they are willing and eager to suffer great harm in the process.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/28/15447.shtml

Safely over the border, they asked the driver "what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment." He surprised them, saying: "The Americans don’t want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb the government and Saddam’s palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam. All Iraqi people want this war."

jorian319 - 09:19pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10731 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12281

You're reaching, alarmst. From your own link:

"The Ba'athist Party has got a grip of the city," said one military official. "The people are scared of us but they are more scared of them. They are trying to stop them from leaving.

Like I said...

"People are too afraid to come out of their homes" ...

Afraid they're going to be shot by Brits/Americans? NO! Afraid they'll be shot if they don't make angry gestures.

I see four Iraqi soldiers in olive-green uniforms sitting in a doorway, their weapons lying across their knees. At their side is a box overflowing with tomatoes; one tosses the fruit haphazardly into the road.

Sounds reeeal conducive to getting citizens to voice their true opinion if it is pro-war. </sarcasm>

As he checks vehicles, L/Cpl Ryan Robinson reaches inside one to calm a sobbing mother. "We need to help these people, to reassure them," he says, clearly moved by their plight. "They are scared of everyone - fear is their norm now."

Hear anything like that about the Ba'ath party thugs?

If that link is supposed to support a case that we will "face a deadly determination of a people who are fighting for their homeland", it fails miserably.

jorian319 - 09:32pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10733 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12283

CNN.com - Top US official: Iraq has executed some POWs - Mar. 27 ... ... In one case, an Iraqi woman was hanged after she waved to coalition forces, Pace said. "I've never seen anything like this," he said. ... www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/27/sprj.irq.pows.executed/ - 41k - Mar 28, 2003

Alamst - don't hold your breath waiting for the warm expressed welcome that might defuse your anger, which is supposedly sympathetic with the Iraqi people.

10735 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12285

The NewsMax is hardly a source of intelligent information on-pair with Foxi News.

Same (or similar) story was run in a plethora of media. Since you and Robert seem to like The Guardian (talk about bias!) go look at their version.

Then go read your own link!!

jorian319 - 09:39pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10736 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.Aty3aeOv6SR.0@.f28e622/12286

One Basra resident who made it to the bridge, Raad Sead, 51, refused to believe that the Iraqis inside the city were firing on the refugees. "They are firing at the army, at the aggressors," he insisted.

The facts have a way of eventually predominating in these situations. And you do believe they were firing on their own, don't you?

You're right about the elephant. We'll see. I'm just giving you the reasons my fifty cents is on dcougar's scenario vs. your own.

jorian319 - 10:07pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10739 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12289

"HITLER WOULD TAKE A LESSON"

I'm going to try to defy Godwins law, and respond to that :-)

Hitler gave that lesson.

Both he, and your Russian examples had degrees of success in rallying national pride to go along with their terrorist suppression of dissent. (Bush is little different, but that is irrelevent to this point).

I do not believe the Great and Wonderful Saddam Son of Muhammed has anywhere near that degree of credibility among his populace. You will eagerly point out that I could be wrong about that. True, but I'd bet on it. In fact, WE ALL ALREADY HAVE. Our money's on the table, all that's left is to show the cards.

As far as second guessing what we're doing, it's too late. If you could snap your fingers and put all the coalition assets and personnel back where they came from, there would be an unprecedented bloodbath before the sound of your snapping fingers died out. Time to get on board.

jorian319 - 11:08pm Mar 29, 2003 EST (# 10743 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12293

Alarmst, thank for elucidating the experiential basis of your opinion in this matter. Your hopes and mine are very similar, yet our beliefs about what is actually happening are very different. Knowing something about how you came to believe what you do is very helpful to my understanding of your opinion. I had thought you were young, naive, idealistic and American born. I was wrong about that and I might be wrong about the outcome of the war, the attitude of the Iraqi people (if it can be usefully generalized at all), the forthrightness of American military spokespersons etc.. Forgive me, but I do believe what I hear from Vance Brooks, and his statements about the limits of what he can candidly discuss. I also believe communiques I have indirectly received from an American in Iraq, who was able to procure an uplink for brief uncensured communication. I believe very little of what I see from "embedded journalists" and even less of what I hear and read. In all cases, I try to consider the source, appraise the messenger along with the message and discount anecdotes as indicators of broader facts. Still, I believe this war will result in less suffering and less bloodshed than would have resulted from inaction, and am hopeful that it will be viewed retrospectively as one of the most benevolent and beneficial interventions ever undertaken by a government's military. You have given me plenty of reasons why your view would be different, but no reason to change my own. You do not think I'm right, and I do not expect to change your mind, but you better hope I'm right!

I pray that this war will defuse the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, (get them to get rid of Arafat!), inspire an internal change in Iran, open the eyes of the North Koreans, force Al-Qaeda deep underground where no government dare befriend them, and a host of other consequences that COULD, I believe, come to pass. I think it was Israel's ex-foreign minister who called 9-11-01 "the beginning of World War III". If all goes well in Iraq, this could be the last battle of World War III. If it doesn't, it could be just the beginning.

! ! ! ! ! ! !

jorian319 - 05:42pm Mar 30, 2003 EST (# 10802 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12352

TOO MUCH OF A "GOOD" THING?

We are effecting discourse.

Says Rshow.

Unfortunately that discourse consists of three people (assuming no sockpuppets), whos posts comprise over 90% of this forum.

I doubt if one lurker a month reads more than one post total, after clicking on "missile defense" and seeing not a word about it, just a running sermon by Rshowalarmstchick. Most of Rshow's posts consist of epic lists of links to other Rshow posts and Rshow's site - sheesh! Effecting discourse? If you think so, I think it's effecting YOU. Which of course, is to be applauded.

! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

jorian319 - 06:57pm Mar 30, 2003 EST (# 10807 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@28.CuK3aAIb6eD.393162@.f28e622/12357

TOO MUCH OF A "GOOD" THING?

We are effecting discourse.

Says Rshow.

Unfortunately that discourse consists of three people (assuming no sockpuppets), whos posts comprise over 90% of this forum.

! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

jorian319 - 08:21pm Mar 30, 2003 EST (# 10820 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12370

Almarst should take your word, or Bush's word as gospel?

Did I say that, Robert? NO!

YOU said that. A good question would be ... why? Afraid your pulpit position might be undermined? Hmmm.

Alarmst I was referring to your quote without question from N Korea. IMHO any excuse will do for those guys - at least as much so as for Bush, and almost certainly more so.

jorian319 - 07:25pm Apr 1, 2003 EST (# 10915 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12465

Wondering how the world has obtained such a warped view of US intentions in Iraq?

This doesn't help. In Swaziland, their official radio network has been broadcasting "live from Bhagdad" - reports from a guy who is actually holed up in a broom closet in their own capitol!

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_766355.html?menu=news.quirkies

How many other "official sources" are people listening to?

jorian319 - 09:57pm Apr 1, 2003 EST (# 10939 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12490

Check Swaziland radio, alarmst - I'm sure they can fabricate something to your delight. OR keep reading the Guardian - pretty much that same thing. Another 48 civilian casualties here, another 197 children burned alive there... all in the amount of time that, given blessed peace, Saddam and his charming kids could have tortured a thousand or so for their amusement - which seems to be of paramount importance to SOME people here.

jorian319 - 10:18am Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10959 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12509

For the war in Iraq to be worthwhile - the Iraqi situation, in Iraqi terms, has to be better than it is. Clearly better.

For once, Robert, I agree that it is worthwhile belaboring the obvious. For all of us who have endorsed this horrible action, there can be no other vindication.

jorian319 - 10:38am Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10960 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12510

http://images.radcity.net/5149/359372.mp3

How much better can it get? How much worse could it be? Listen to that above (Iraqi-born) American.

For the war in Iraq to be worthwhile - the Iraqi situation, in Iraqi terms, has to be better than it is. Clearly better.

I think we can do that.

jorian319 - 07:24pm Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10966 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12517

Alarmst's posts raise an important point all right - the important point is that many people will swallow whole any anti-american sentiment, voiced by whatever party, regardless of how ill-supported and how slimy the source.

We need to remain mindful of the machinations of the global propaganda machine, including its component parts in the media, the military, religious factions and ignorant do-gooders.

-------------

Fredmoore Criticises Showalter:

fredmoore - 08:27pm Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10969 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12520

DC, Jorian ...

Free speech is not the problem. Biased and skewed viewpoints are easily put to the test. What I see the problem to be, is the posting of 10's of kilobytes of tautologous garbage each day with the aim of self aggrandising the poster and deliberately obfuscating often quite important points made by others. There is a degree of selfishness here that negates many points the poster is trying to make.

My view is that there shoild be a limit of 1Kb per poster per thread per day. This gives casual readers a chance to see a wide range of views and not reams of monotonous blowhard.

Cheers

jorian319 - 08:42pm Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10970 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12521

Hear here, Fred.

jorian319 - 09:14pm Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10972 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12523

Iraq, a sovereign nation and member of the UNO, in which war crimes and murder are being committed on a daily basis...

Well, you got that much right.

jorian319 - 09:55pm Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10973 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12524

CNN reports "more Iraqi civilians killed by their own regime in the last 12 days than by coalition". Also, more evidence today of blatant breaches of UN 1441. Also, more atrocities by those nice Iraqi army gentlemen. Coalition troops within a virtual stone's throw of Bhagdad...

The best news, (for alarmst) Saddam's "spokesman" reliably informs us that "victory is at hand" for Iraq. Alarmst should be reeeeal pleased about that, since he believes anything they tell him.

jorian319 - 11:55am Apr 3, 2003 EST (# 11010 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12561

Obviously we are already paying a "horrible, bloody price". The only question is what we are getting for that price. The removal of a brutal regime that has already murdered over a million of its own citizens is no small benefit.

Alarmst would have us turn our back on this tragic brutality, to preserve some purity of non-involvement.

jorian319 - 12:03pm Apr 3, 2003 EST (# 11014 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12565

Alarmst, what possible difference does it make what I believe? If the net result is a better future for the Iraqi people, "what it is about" has no relevence.

jorian319 - 12:11pm Apr 3, 2003 EST (# 11016 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12567

More and more Iraqi people are turning out to help coalition forces, as the spectre of fear and terror promulgated by the Iraqi regime dissipates under pressure from the coalition.

More evidence is turning up daily, illustrating the truly nightmarish brutality of the Hussein government, and reinforcing the fact that they have been ritually ignoring UN demands for disarmament. The have been stockpiling outlawed ballistic armaments, supporting terrorist groups, developiung chemical weapons... and the list goes on.

But, as SH's "spokesman" revealed yesterday, "victory is at hand" for Iraq. Pretty comforting, eh, alarmst?

jorian319 - 12:16pm Apr 3, 2003 EST (# 11019 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12570

U.S. troops moved into the center of Iraq (news - web sites)'s holy city of Najaf on Thursday, bolstered by an edict from a top local Shi'ite Muslim leader urging people not to interfere with them.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&e=9&u=/nm/20030403/ts_nm/iraq_fatwa_dc

Sorry if this bums out our alarmist.

jorian319 - 09:55am Apr 4, 2003 EST (# 11055 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12606

George W. Bush has “lost” the war in Iraq

Cnanneling Saddam again, alarmst? You and he seem to be the only ones who think so.

Maybe laying off Al-Guardian would be helpful...

jorian319 - 11:30am Apr 4, 2003 EST (# 11059 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12610

There are a couple of morons on this thread that have bought into everything Fox News spues out.

(that would be "spews") And there are couple who eagerly devour everything Al-Guardian prints. Of course, Herr Kommondata gets all HIS information first hand. </sarcasm>

jorian319 - 12:40pm Apr 4, 2003 EST (# 11072 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12623

television network MSNBC is reporting US Marines found cyanide and mustard agents in high concentrations in the Euphrates River near Nasiriyah.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s825240.htm

jorian319 - 12:48pm Apr 4, 2003 EST (# 11075 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12626

Hey lchick - why does a mirror reverse left and right, but not up and down?

(Ask robbie k - he's obviously spends lots of time suffering in front of mirrors)

jorian319 - 01:20pm Apr 4, 2003 EST (# 11078 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12629

Do you have to put out a quota of postings before the dollars comes through ...

Gee, that's the first I've heard of it, but you should know, lchick -

a (fraction of a) day in the life:

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#1 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#2 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#3 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#4 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#5 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#6 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#7 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#8 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#9 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#10 of 11076)

by lchic - Mar 1, 02 (#16 of 11076)

...and a year+ later...

by lchic - Mar 25, 03 (#10477 of 11077)

by lchic - Mar 25, 03 (#10478 of 11077)

by lchic - Mar 25, 03 (#10479 of 11077)

by lchic - Mar 25, 03 (#10480 of 11077)

by lchic - Mar 25, 03 (#10481 of 11077)

by lchic - Mar 25, 03 (#10482 of 11077)

Yep, it looks like you'd be the expert, especially if you get extra points for consecutive unaswered posts.

So, can you answer the "mirror" question?

jorian319 - 03:04pm Apr 7, 2003 EST (# 11187 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12745

Robert, I read every one of the links you provided, thank you so much. I'm sure many many other people also read every one of those links and are similarly impressed. It's so much more powerful than your average poster who might only provide ten or twenty links to other stuff they wrote.

jorian319 - 04:04pm Apr 7, 2003 EST (# 11188 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12746

Speaking of missiles...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. forces near Baghdad found a weapons cache of around 20 medium-range missiles equipped with potent chemical weapons, the U.S. news station National Public Radio reported on Monday. NPR, which attributed the report to a top official with the 1st Marine Division, said the rockets, BM-21 missiles, were equipped with sarin and mustard gas and were "ready to fire." It quoted the source as saying new U.S. intelligence data showed the chemicals were "not just trace elements."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47645-2003Apr7.html

Seems to be getting the "so what" treatment from mainstream US media so far.

jorian319 - 05:43pm Apr 7, 2003 EST (# 11194 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12752

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2919249.stm

they will be laser-guided 1,000lb blocks of concrete, capable of destroying a tank or artillery piece, but without causing a devastating explosion that would put civilians at risk and shatter surrounding buildings.

True weapons of "mass" destruction.

jorian319 - 08:02pm Apr 7, 2003 EST (# 11196 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12754

Thanks, Lou!

Here's one for you...

http://www.ruidosodigital.com/canyouhearmenow

Copy the above into your address bar, then add a dot jay pee gee (NYT netnanny won't let the actual URL through their filter)

Can you hear me now?

jorian319 - 03:41pm Apr 9, 2003 EST (# 11217 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12776

Don't worry alarmst, there's still time to find a reason to level Baghdad. Sorry - I'm trying really hard not to say "I TOLD YOU SO!!!"

...and besides, even my own prognostication provided that this would not be the tough part of winning a solution of benefit to the Iraqi people. I'm sure that at this point, alarmst will agree (he always has) that the worst is yet to come.

Robert, mighty large of you to offer to rescind comments you don't remember making... maybe one of your hordes of readers will find time to pore through the thousands of links you've provided to your own writings, and submit some candidates for possible apology.

jorian319 - 05:48pm Apr 9, 2003 EST (# 11223 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12782

I share your elation - very reservedly, gisterme.

It is truly a joy to see our young people in uniform getting well-earned thanks and enjoying a small opportunity to share the joy of the fruit of their labors.

The French have cretienly (sp intentional) painted themselves into an uncomfortable corner, and now will probably lose all those oil contracts they had with Saddam to boot. The Germans, Russians et. al. still have their semi-credible fallbacks as rationale for their positions, but I think French credibility is toast - no pun intended.

The silence from alarmst today is deafening. I figure that by tomorrow he will have divined some of the same downside that I see coming from the current situation. Scary times lie ahead, for our people in Iraq, and for the Iraqi people.

jorian319 - 01:28pm Apr 12, 2003 EST (# 11261 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12821

NK's current softening of their line is IMHO related to coalition success in Iraq.

Iraq is going to be a mess for a while. The greatest suffering from this transition is yet to come. I feel for them, and hope for them.

The opportunity is there for Iraq to become the Arabian crown jewel, or to slip into third-world oblivion. Hopefully the strength of the Iraqi people will be evidenced in the near future, minimizing the need for UN/US/other intervention and presence.

jorian319 - 07:21pm Apr 12, 2003 EST (# 11270 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12830

Luna:

Why Don't Poor Countries Adopt Better Technologies?

If so many people are starving, why are there empty tables in restaurants?

jorian319 - 09:46pm Apr 19, 2003 EST (# 11352 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12918

almarst has a keen knack for myopic focus on whatever dark cloud may lurk behind any possible silver lining. Such naysaying has already disproven itself in this situation, but just for grins let's give him the tortured "benefit" of the doubt.

Let me suggest that if US presence in Iraq should, as his alarmist "sources" imply, cause the shiites sunni and kurds to unite, the country of Iraq would benefit immeasurably from an historic and unprecedented unity. Perhaps then it could govern itself with something other than savage tyranny. Yay, us!

jorian319 - 07:09pm Apr 20, 2003 EST (# 11374 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12943

If I was a country, a country with the foot of a tryant on the throat of my people, divided by creeds and classes, a country of wealth where most people were poor... if I was such a country, I would hope and pray that the US would invade my ass.

jorian319 - 08:34am Apr 26, 2003 EST (# 11403 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/12977

Never thought I'd miss the hand-wringing, hair-pulling stylings of almarst. At least he painted a nice flat-black background against which highlights showed up beautifully.

jorian319 - 10:25pm Apr 29, 2003 EST (# 11428 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13008

Nice to have you back almarst. I see the gloom and doom business is still producing prodigiously. Are you not worried that your supply might someday outstrip demand?

jorian319 - 09:18am Apr 30, 2003 EST (# 11439 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13019

Lchick -

..baring in mind...

You dirty girl, you!

jorian319 - 04:41pm May 6, 2003 EST (# 11482 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13071

Sorry Luna - you'll probably have to read it to him. Ro_tten is one of the stupidest trolls ever to visit here.

jorian319 - 03:44pm May 13, 2003 EST (# 11626 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13234

Gee thanks. I'll have to read all those links next time I'm in Singsing for five-to-life.

jorian319 - 04:42pm May 15, 2003 EST (# 11692 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13302

Y'mean like those rumors that France was going into Iraq to give surrendering lessons?

jorian319 - 03:22pm May 20, 2003 EST (# 11831 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13444

I had an all-day web session yesterday with an individual I have reason to believe was the Ruler of the Universe, or someone very close to him. He told me he was pretty upset with what's happening to the Komodo Dragons.

jorian319 - 09:45am May 25, 2003 EST (# 11971 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.FPnHbESSbum.2399134@.f28e622/13596

Wow, lunachick:

30 posts since yesterday. You sure have a lot to say. To SOMEONE....???

Quality vs. quantity - who's to judge?

I guess only the reader...

I usually scan this thread for posts by anyone other than the usual three suspects, and find a gratifyingly higher average quality.

jorian319 - 10:13am May 25, 2003 EST (# 11977 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13602

Gee, lchick alias Rshow, alias alarmist -

flying is something to aspire to.

Of course then you'd have to miss an hour of posting... no chance of that!

jorian319 - 11:05am May 25, 2003 EST (# 11991 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13616

Another 4-pack. Cool.

I guess it is possible that there are two who have no lives...

jorian319 - 12:11pm May 25, 2003 EST (# 11994 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13619

Don't sweat it, buck - all of us have to wear a lot of hats to satisfy loopy's craving for cornspiracy. I'm at least three of us. Just wonder who the heck "Poster" is?

jorian319 - 11:45am May 26, 2003 EST (# 12049 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13674

Rshochic,

Y'all have a lot of typing to do if you wanna outblather alarmist!

Ne'er seen the like - 24 posts in a row??!? SOMEONE thinks they're awful important.

jorian319 - 12:25pm May 26, 2003 EST (# 12052 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13677

LOL! Post of the day.

So... There's two racehorses and a greyhound hanging around the stable, and one of the horses starts bragging "I ran twenty-seven races and won seventeen of them!" The other horse is not impressed - "Well, I ran in thirty-six races and won twenty-five of them!" The greyhound says "That's nothing! I ran in ninety-eight races, and won seventy six of them!" The first horse says - "Hey! A talking dog!"

jorian319 - 04:08pm May 26, 2003 EST (# 12057 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13682

Never mind Rottenburger, Lou. NYT will delete all his posts again as soon as they get back from the long weekend - put him on ignore like everyone else does.

jorian319 - 05:07pm May 26, 2003 EST (# 12062 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@@.f28e622/13686

So now it's the laughing Bhudda ?

What's the laughing Bhudda?

Is this a sensitive question, like "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you" or maybe "If they find out I know they'll kill me" ?

Remember loony, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not really after you! :)