Missile Defense

"powers that be"

are posting on this thread. But it is fun to think about it - and a human being - reading this thread - and looking at scales and durations - is likely to think about it...

Cantabb's basic plan is to mix up and poison any coherent logical structure at all

That must be idle surmise, given that you have provided no logical coherent structure whatsoever upon which to test it.

"Robert, in the aggregate, we are most concerned about ourselves - not the Iraqi people or some abstract class of "victims of oppression".

"With that in mind, I submit that our government is currently undertaking a metamophosis that will transform it from an insidious force eroding our rights to an aggressive monster conspicuously and unashamedly devouring those rights under "patriot act" type banners.

"I submit that this is a clear and present danger that - to Americans - dwarfs the dangers of Iraqi dictators, terrorism in general, nuclear/chemical/biological threat and asteroid impact combined...

This thread has some very high toned stuff ( not just from Jorian319 , and of course, cantabb excepted. ) …

Awww. Cantabb NOW “excepted” from high-toned stuff !..

jorian319 - 01:27pm Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10537 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.5cZXbhXYNHh.1750028@.f28e622/12087

"Robert, in the aggregate, we are most concerned about ourselves - not the Iraqi people or some abstract class of "victims of oppression".

"With that in mind, I submit that our government is currently undertaking a metamophosis that will transform it from an insidious force eroding our rights to an aggressive monster conspicuously and unashamedly devouring those rights under "patriot act" type banners...

Cantabb , you're not being completely ignored, either. I did some summary posts. Guardian Talk International Psychwarfare, Casablanca -- and terror http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@.ee7a163/485 448-50 That posting cites http://www.mrshowalter.net/Cantabb_Srch_to10_4.htm

As I said before, I couldn't care less if I'm "ignored" or not...

Guardian Talk International Psychwarfare, Casablanca -- and terror http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@.ee7a163/485 448-50

That posting cites http://www.mrshowalter.net/Cantabb_Srch_to10_4.htm

Lchic's postings are fine - and are a good deal more often associated directly with Missile Defense than Jorian319's .

jorian319

Re: signatures, I don't think it would do to just have some kind of "hot" nosecone separate at boost. It would lack key features like superhot trail of gasses etc. You'd have to have actual "live" burning rockets, which would be difficult (but not impossible) to accomplish...

I'm taking a rest for a little while

Thank God for small favors.

Unless logical competence at the simple level discussed in the last few posts becomes better than it now is - there is no solution

Whaaaa? Blather.

People "connect the dots" - find patterns

There's always more yellow ones in a box than red ones.

Will,

Re: signatures, I don't think it would do to just have some kind of "hot" nosecone separate at boost...

jorian319

You wrote:

Maybe not "remove", but it does place considerable additional burden. In-flight decoys can be simple objects, but launch/boost decoys would have to emit credible IR signatures - a very expensive per-unit undertaking.

How hard would it be to fake a strong IR signature?..

And I was surprised, Jorian319 - to see something directly connected to MD ( and sensible, too - though maybe wrong) in one of your posts. Your forth real MD reference is some hundreds of posts...

You can stop looking now, because you're not going to find it. I don't propound on subjects about which I know nothing...

the EU Dollar was struggling for parity ... now it's 117

So? A drop in the overflowing bucket...

84.6/68 = A 23% GAIN! Not too shabby.

I guess we can add "economics" to the list-o-things about which loonie has no clue.

Cantabb -We have a looooong way to go before we've "dumped" on rshow as much as he has cumulatively "dumped" on us!

I know, I know.

Some people thought fit to "ignore" it, some fought a little but were sidetracked or felt overwhelmed, and the backyard was soon overgrown with weeds...

If you found one of your own posts “worth reposting - it isn't something that ought to be buried,” you need to include MY response to it – for the balance -- unless you want to continue to misrepresent things. Your own posts are NOT the whole story. Here's the rest of the story :

rshow55 quoted: cantabb - occasionally writes something worthwhile, and to the point

cantabb response you did NOT quote: "Coming from a person who can’t do either, what a weird comment !"

And, here are some more of my comments:

“Don’t you think people can READ what’s already in 2 brief posts recently – without your ‘excerpts?..

I don't see how that could have happened. Rice and Hadley are both too competent to have that happen "by mistake.

We had the President of the United States misinforming the American people to justify a war...

We have a looooong way to go before we've "dumped" on rshow as much as he has cumulatively "dumped" on us!

I'm thinking about doing better now.

Good for you. Doing anything would be doing better - since for so long you've been doing nothing...

It is true that a common enemy is a fine galvanizing factor, but Robert doesn't even rise to that level.

But even at the level he HAS attained (basically "common annoyance" to readers of this thread), unanimity about how annoying he is can take on the appearance of a unified voice, regardless of how disparate and varied the involved people's views and values may be.

that depends on who cares - and who checks. Things are shifting fairly fast - and it is obvious that some posters recently mobilized care a good deal. Why?..

May 15th 2003 | NEW YORK From The Economist print edition

Crisis management for a top media brand

QUALITY control problems can wreak havoc with any business, especially when a reputation for high quality is a crucial ingredient of its brand. Ask the New York Times, which is having to deal with its own version of Ford's dodgy Firestone tyres, and Coca-Cola's Belgian taste troubles...

Damme if these posts don't seem worth another loop through .

Damme, then.

rshow never met a post (of his own) that he didn't think worth repeating.

Using boost phase really doesn't remove the advantage of the attacker, it would seem

Maybe not "remove", but it does place considerable additional burden. In-flight decoys can be simple objects, but launch/boost decoys would have to emit credible IR signatures - a very expensive per-unit undertaking.

Oh crap - now I've done it...

Dots were originally sold as "Mason Dots". Coincidence?..

AHA!..

Whothehell would do a stupid thing like that? [That is, "tell (rshow55) how (he) can identify you"]. [emphasis added]

Er, erm, [sheesh] a few of the posters have done things 'like that', and have lived to tell the forum about it...

tell me how I can identify you

Whothehell would do a stupid thing like that?

You can identify him by his handle: c-a-n-t-a-b-b

If you are under the delusion that anyone here wants to follow the path of gisterme, who has been stalked unmercifully for no other crime than making sense, you are in worse shape than I thought.

The NYT placed me on this board

What nonsense ! "[P]laced" by NYT ?

Didn't you have to register with your personal details, submit, and agree to abide by the NYT conditions and policies ?..

Prolixity is not profundity.

The NYT placed me on this board - and I've been much more focused on missile defense than Jorian319 , for instance.

Could it be that I'm doing something right - and some political leaders are feeling pressure ?..

Epiphany - Rshow55 is GWB!

Think about it - it explains a lot!..

#13925 - jorian319 Sep 24, 2003 07:58 pm http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.5cZXbhXYNHh.1750054@.f28e622/15630

They probably elected to keep MD because it had a low post count at the time - if it ain't broke, why fix it?

But I reread them all - and there were 3 with (fairly tangential) allusions to missile defense - out of hundreds...

I liked a lot about them from the first posts

jorian319 - 04:11pm Mar 20, 2003 EST (# 10269 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.5cZXbhXYNHh.1750054@.f28e622/11816

"IMO it is equally regrettable that those who denounce our attack on Iraq are called traitors or "pro-Saddam", and that those who condone it are called "pro-war". I am sure that the vast majority of Americans who are opposed to our attack on Iraq are not traitorous in any sense, and I am absolutely certain that almost nobody supporting the attack is "pro-war"...

500 million population in NEW (to be) trading block ASIA

Unless they launch a missile attack on us, eh, loonie? Otherwise, cool! More upside potential!

my guess is he's a hack who's paid to 'sit' here

Only the Shadow knows! (Well, I know too, but who's gonna believe an accused shill?)

Thanks, loonie.

"powers that be"

are posting on this thread. But it is fun to think about it - and a human being - reading this thread - and looking at scales and durations - is likely to think about it...

Cantabb's basic plan is to mix up and poison any coherent logical structure at all

That must be idle surmise, given that you have provided no logical coherent structure whatsoever upon which to test it.

"Robert, in the aggregate, we are most concerned about ourselves - not the Iraqi people or some abstract class of "victims of oppression".

"With that in mind, I submit that our government is currently undertaking a metamophosis that will transform it from an insidious force eroding our rights to an aggressive monster conspicuously and unashamedly devouring those rights under "patriot act" type banners.

"I submit that this is a clear and present danger that - to Americans - dwarfs the dangers of Iraqi dictators, terrorism in general, nuclear/chemical/biological threat and asteroid impact combined...

This thread has some very high toned stuff ( not just from Jorian319 , and of course, cantabb excepted. ) …

Awww. Cantabb NOW “excepted” from high-toned stuff !..

jorian319 - 01:27pm Mar 26, 2003 EST (# 10537 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.5cZXbhXYNHh.1750028@.f28e622/12087

"Robert, in the aggregate, we are most concerned about ourselves - not the Iraqi people or some abstract class of "victims of oppression".

"With that in mind, I submit that our government is currently undertaking a metamophosis that will transform it from an insidious force eroding our rights to an aggressive monster conspicuously and unashamedly devouring those rights under "patriot act" type banners...

Cantabb , you're not being completely ignored, either. I did some summary posts. Guardian Talk International Psychwarfare, Casablanca -- and terror http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@.ee7a163/485 448-50 That posting cites http://www.mrshowalter.net/Cantabb_Srch_to10_4.htm

As I said before, I couldn't care less if I'm "ignored" or not...

Guardian Talk International Psychwarfare, Casablanca -- and terror http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@.ee7a163/485 448-50

That posting cites http://www.mrshowalter.net/Cantabb_Srch_to10_4.htm

Lchic's postings are fine - and are a good deal more often associated directly with Missile Defense than Jorian319's .

jorian319

Re: signatures, I don't think it would do to just have some kind of "hot" nosecone separate at boost. It would lack key features like superhot trail of gasses etc. You'd have to have actual "live" burning rockets, which would be difficult (but not impossible) to accomplish...

I'm taking a rest for a little while

Thank God for small favors.

Unless logical competence at the simple level discussed in the last few posts becomes better than it now is - there is no solution

Whaaaa? Blather.

People "connect the dots" - find patterns

There's always more yellow ones in a box than red ones.

Will,

Re: signatures, I don't think it would do to just have some kind of "hot" nosecone separate at boost...

jorian319

You wrote:

Maybe not "remove", but it does place considerable additional burden. In-flight decoys can be simple objects, but launch/boost decoys would have to emit credible IR signatures - a very expensive per-unit undertaking.

How hard would it be to fake a strong IR signature?..

And I was surprised, Jorian319 - to see something directly connected to MD ( and sensible, too - though maybe wrong) in one of your posts. Your forth real MD reference is some hundreds of posts...

Gisterme committed what is apparently a cardinal sin when he had the temerity to show some sense and informedness - something that many here could exhibit if trolls like you weren't so urgent to declare them agents of Trashcanistan (or someone very close to one).

Where's the EVIDENCE Rshow?..

The question of "who is gisterme is getting more interesting - and more and more people with power and independence are taking positions where it may be answered.

You might as well refer to the question of who gisterme was, since you scared him away with your cyber-stalking, you psycho. Where is your evidence that anyone but loonie has even seen your ramblings, let alone "taking positions"?..

Yeah. I admit to having fun posting pseudoprofundities and watching him go after them like carp on flakes. But it gets old, ....

Cantabb seems bound and determined to repost Robert's posts! Lou,

That is the price that must be paid for the unpleasant job of dissembling Rshow's er... uh...

...making some comments ... is more likely to let him freer to wander off some more or confuse the issue.

Yeah...

"That is the price that must be paid for the unpleasant job of dissembling Rshow's..."

You are correct...."dismembering.". the Weblog term is "fisking", after the leftwing British journalist Robert Fisk....

Cantabb is using the same piece-by-piece "fisking" formula....

Cantabb seems bound and determined to repost Robert's posts!

Lou,

That is the price that must be paid for the unpleasant job of dissembling Rshow's er... uh...

You are needed at the HumOr forum, where some fundie idiot is trying to convince people that the earth has slowed so much that days are more than two minutes longer now than they were 170 years ago...

he might be too crazy for them too....

Too crazy for Madtown??? That's a scary thought...

What more need be said?

(Not to worry - if there is anything, it's already been said here about a million times.)

The simplistic beauty of it! The beautiful simplicity of it! The simple simplicity, the beautiful beauty - I'm in friggin' AWE!

" It seems we stood and talked like this, before . . We looked at each other in the same way then ...

Peace, and in my opinion the survival of the world - require people to learn this lesson.

WHAT "lesson"? There's no lesson there, just disjointed ramblings...

"Me, Robert Showalter, rshow55 (click rshowalter )

"almarst - almarst2001 - almarst2002 , who I've sometimes mistaken for a ranking personage, though he's assured me I'm wrong about that."

"gisterme , who I've also sometimes mistaken for a ranking personage, though he's assured me I'm wrong about that, and sometimes I believe him - I switch back and forth. If gisterme does not have high government connections -- and is not speaking with authority --- gisterme has often written to convey a sense that those connections."

"manjumicha ( and manjumicha2001) sometimes speaks with authority, as if he had rank at the NYT."

"fredmoore , sometimes posts so perceptively that I should know he's with the NYT."

"mazza9 - who I've talked to over the phone - comes across as an astronaut and reflexive defender of militarist positions."

"jorian319 speaks authoritatively, from time to time - and seems to have known some journalists at one time or another."

"An important enough cast of characters to merit Anne Coulter's time? I think the posters are well connected indeed, and think that Coulter's involvement tends to support that."

An important enough case of delusional behaviour to call the psychiatrist...?

I have not been contacted

Are you sure? You sure sound a lot like one of those who claim they have been "contacted".

Has your ID been estasblished yet ?

IF not, how about "Karl Rove" ?

Don't like it, pick another name from the hat...

Swirl of language indeed. A whirlwind of words...

Howsa bout we involve some establishment type - plainly above reproach on this sort of issue - say an executive at The Onion on any wager we arrange?

Surprised by your choice, but that's fine. All we need is gisterme's okay.

You never responded to my proposal, which offers the following benefits to this thread, to humanity, and of course to ME!

Kuwaiti security forces foiled an attempted smuggling of $60 million worth of chemical weapons and biological warheads from Iraq to an unnamed European country.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34881

Is it safe to assume that while you and Ike were keeping the world safe you mamaged to accumulate considerable personal net worth?

If so, I'd like to propose a bet.

I have low to mid six figures that says you're wrong about Gisterme...

If you can't close the forum down with your written complaints to NYT AND you cannot convince Rshow to post on topic ... what USE are you and what is the purpose of your continuance?..

..i miss bluestar.

that guy was really interesting.

Agreed...

"how much hurt are we willing to endure for the benefit of not worrying about measles?"

http://www.someselfreferencingcrap.com

http://www.somemoreselfreferencingcrap.com

http://www.evenmoreselfreferencingcrap.com

</showalter>

Sometimes it is not acceptable to do "crash and burn" engineering

That was my point.

modelling is getting much better and much cheaper

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

When venturing into unknown territory, I do not want to rely on models...

...if you know what matters in enough detail to do valid, scalable modelling...

And if you're willing to crash and burn a few times, you can use use it as a measure of what you don't know - if you survive. That's not the way to control anything, though...

"Well, Robert, if you ever come back, maybe you could respond to my post about Langley and control.

Jorian319 - look at the "dimensionless groups" in fig 3.1 of http://www.mrshowalter.net/Similitude_ForceRatios_sjk.htm - they provide "similarity groups" - Reynolds number and Mach number are two of the most famous and useful - and you can correllate an infinite set of objects - with similar geometry - if they have the same dimensionless numbers - in the ways that matter for the case. For example - a flow visualization for a set geometry and specified dimensionless ratios models, in great detail - an infinite set of different scales (with the same dimensional groups.) Modern aeronautical engineering would be unthinkable without the use of dimensionless groups -and differential equations set out in dimensionless form...

Lchic, you might want to read up on Langley's aerodrome -"just make it bigger" is exactly what he did, and you know what it got him (besides an AFB named after him)? Wet.

continued with overlap.......

"If you follow this board, it is easy to see that I couldn't do the things I propose in.......... "I'd be blocked - quite often on status grounds...

Here's a somewhat detailed response -- just to set the record straight:

Cantabb - please answer me this. I asked jorian319 a specific question just above - in 14128 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.5cZXbhXYNHh.1750190@.f28e622/15834

Actually, in # 14128, you quote an exchange (from #13678) and ask 3 questions (clearly rhetorical: as Jorian says above) . Your circular self-referencing aside, the Questions you ask [roughly] : how long people have to “fight”, how many would “really want” to fight, and how many know how to avoid a “fight”?..

Was I saying something you already know?

Referred to

How often do people have to fight?..

Another raw gem from cantabb. I am rather enjoying his dissembly of Rshow's ramblings. Do you need someone to bring you food or anything, cantabb?..

Would you have a clear answer to the question asked ( not just another effort to generate divergence and another expression of hostility ).

When I suggested a very sensible way to solve some problems - or so it seemed to me - your response was an emphatic "you couldn't pay me (us) enough" - ( as I recall )...

Most people know lot more than what you're saying.

Another raw gem from cantabb. I am rather enjoying his dissembly of Rshow's ramblings...

The answers that are needed have to be formed - and they involve both logical and emotional barriers to the achievement of good and stable "end games" - or trajectories - in negotiation.

Translation: Do the right thing.

Between the lines: I have a deep need to be recognized as an influential, benificent force in the evolution of today's society, but cannot present any solutions, so I content myself with using far more words than necessary to say things everybody already knows.

My point?

Hmmm. I don't think I have a point...

Odds are good that if the patterns of agreement (or disagreement) are STABLE and KNOWN they can be decently accomodated.

Wow. Really?..

I get tired and discouraged, like a lot of people. Not as exhausted as good kindergarten teachers get...

Here's a somewhat detailed response -- just to set the record straight:

Cantabb - please answer me this. I asked jorian319 a specific question just above - in 14128 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.V0BPbUmKLLm.1015871@.f28e622/15834

Actually, in # 14128, you quote an exchange (from #13678) and ask 3 questions (clearly rhetorical: as Jorian says above) . Your circular self-referencing aside, the Questions you ask [roughly] : how long people have to “fight”, how many would “really want” to fight, and how many know how to avoid a “fight”?..

Was I saying something you already know?

Referred to

How often do people have to fight?..

Another raw gem from cantabb. I am rather enjoying his dissembly of Rshow's ramblings. Do you need someone to bring you food or anything, cantabb?..

Would you have a clear answer to the question asked ( not just another effort to generate divergence and another expression of hostility ).

When I suggested a very sensible way to solve some problems - or so it seemed to me - your response was an emphatic "you couldn't pay me (us) enough" - ( as I recall )...

Most people know lot more than what you're saying.

Another raw gem from cantabb. I am rather enjoying his dissembly of Rshow's ramblings...

The answers that are needed have to be formed - and they involve both logical and emotional barriers to the achievement of good and stable "end games" - or trajectories - in negotiation.

Translation: Do the right thing.

Between the lines: I have a deep need to be recognized as an influential, benificent force in the evolution of today's society, but cannot present any solutions, so I content myself with using far more words than necessary to say things everybody already knows.

My point?

Hmmm. I don't think I have a point...

Odds are good that if the patterns of agreement (or disagreement) are STABLE and KNOWN they can be decently accomodated.

Wow. Really?..

I get tired and discouraged, like a lot of people. Not as exhausted as good kindergarten teachers get...

Whos stories had gaps you could party in.

It seems only fitting

To read it while sitting

On a pot that it smells sort of farty in.

©jorian2003

cantabb:You're making it difficult for Robert to maintain his stranglehold on conversation around here. Shame on you!

Monologue is NOT “conversation.” However, some dedicated ‘regulars’ here don't think so...

You're making it difficult for Robert to maintain his stranglehold on conversation around here. Shame on you!

It is often easier to sort things out at a relatively small scale - get things worked out at that relatively small scale - and then transfer what has been learned to larger scales - where the stakes are much higher.

Isn't that what Langley did when he was trying to beat the Wright brothers to first flight? IIRC, he embarrassed himself mightily, and more than once...

And that's what counts, right? They are our hosts, after all... ...

...have seen how this thread has been abused. NYTimes works in its own ways: recall how many Forums it deleted (2x, I think recently), but kept this one !

I think they banned rshow under another, similar handle 'way back...

Possibly your statements regarding "correctness" "fairness" "outcomes" "procedures" and all your other habitually overworked terms, are all for your own benefit?

If so, I, for one, am inclined to forgive the minor transgression that is misuse of a public forum, in favor of the greater good that is your healing.

People have to do some switching.

...

Did you ever notice that most other posters (including the deified lchic) are able to post meaningful thoughts in less than a page and without a single self-referential link???

Did you ever ask yourself "Self, why is it that I'm the only poster who needs to fill pages with links to my other pages full of links to my other pages, while everyone else who makes any sense is able to do so without posting pages and pages of links to pages and pages of links?" ???

What part of "DO NOT RESPOND" did you fail to understand?

Jorian319 - I have a question. I don't know the answer...

(for those who might mistake it for an important message to or from someone important)

What's fair ? is a key question. A difficult question...

Robbie, don't you know you're wasting your time? NYT will have your spam gone by tomorrow!

This quote was on the last page of the American Heritage Picture History of World War II , by C.L. Sulzberger and the editors of American Heritage , published in 1966...

jorian - "...I do not simply scroll past, because cantabb has been a vital contributor, with both commentary and links, to other discussions in the past..."

gisterme: I've read posts from him elsewhere where he seemed entirely reasonable too.

Thus begins arm-chair pshychoanalysis of yet another poster. Could identity speculations be far behind ?..

jorian319 - 06:20pm Sep 20, 2003 EST (# 13814 of 13814)

Whatever.

Yeah, whatever !

Holy crap.

Maybe NYT would be interested in setting up a forum entitled "The Conduct of Other Posters", and set cantabb up as the moderator. I, for one, don't like having to scan all of cantabb's posts looking for content other than commentary on other posters' behavior...

Maybe NYT would be interested in setting up a forum entitled "The Conduct of Other Posters", and set cantabb up as the moderator. I, for one, don't like having to scan all of cantabb's posts looking for content other than commentary on other posters' behavior...

Shoot me now.

-------------> running away

jorian319 - 06:14pm Sep 18, 2003 EST (# 13747 of 13747)

cantabb: I might start watching this Forum

Jorian: Is that a threat? :-)

Well, NOT even a promise ! Just "might" :)

Well, it is a public forum,

Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's there for ANY one to keep abusing it...

I might start watching this Forum

Is that a threat? :-)

...some posters not only like the slop, but ADMIRE it reverentially, and ask for more.

Well, it is a public forum, and the only way I know of to diminish the slop-ratio would be to post even greater volumes of posts that are not only relevant but also compelling enough to command the general conversation...

On public discussion and public decisions on defense matters: We don't do it openly NOW, and, I don't expect they will do it on MD. Lot of times we don't really know what we do already have. ALL for obvious security reasons !

...OTOH, there is a reason that such decisions are not made at the public level.

The lack of pressing need NOW may be one reason for lack of interest. BUT that doesn't mean one can turn the forum into a kitchen sink...

It may be possible, but we don't really have it, do we ? Do we need it? Do we need to spend more money on it, in view of other budgetary demands ?..

gisterme: ...the bottom line for me is not whether it's possible or not (I'm sure it is) but whether it's needed or not.

Jorian: Agreed. A smuggled or domestically assembled device would seem a much greater threat than one delivered (suicidally, by the country of origin) by missile...

...the bottom line for me is not whether it's possible or not (I'm sure it is) but whether it's needed or not.

Agreed. A smuggled or domestically assembled device would seem a much greater threat than one delivered (suicidally, by the country of origin) by missile.

Rise above it. Apply a little grace if you have it in you.

gisterme, you've been a fair model of graciousness around here, and look what it got you...

"...one of the reasons this forum lacks focus IMO, is that the issue is simply NOT as pressing as dealing with other, more imminent threats..."

G:

"That only indicates distraction, not reduced need...

Of course, in the context of missile defense that is true. (I'm sure Robert would say something trite like "need needs to be discussed".) But I was speaking to the reasons it's so hard to keep an ostesibly missile defense forum "on track", and one of them IMO is that missile defense as the header intends, has been triaged down the heirarchy of national attention.

I think Almarst's are also more important than mine

It is revealing that even Robert thinks that the moanings of a professional victim-type are more important than his own posts. Maybe he is actually learning something.

Not that I take much stock in Robert's Index of Importance, but at least he's finding out that there is life after VIP audiences.

A failure of intelligence Openness will make us more secure Leader Sunday September 14, 2003 The Observer http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/comment/0,13747,1041771,00.html

includes this language:

" Blair may have selectively deployed information but he is not a liar . He was misled. Was it cock-up or conspiracy?..

I think it is worth checking how gisterme and Bush are related. ... When others disagree - it seems to me that they ought to think clearly about why they do...

I do not believe gisterme when he says: "I will certainly not impersonate the President or any other government official."

Wow. A list of things and people rshowalter doesn't believe will certainly go a long way toward solving the problems of the world.

Maybe I can help...

Human actions work best according to the following pattern:

" Get scared .... take a good look ..... get organized .....

. "Connecting the dots" works because, when patterns are put together in different ways, and checked for internal consistency and for fit to external information workable "connections of the dots" are very sparse ...

No more dots for you Robbie - you've eaten enough already.

Geez, okay. I was thinking more along the lines of, say, convening an emergency session of the cabinet, calling a general or admiral on the carpet, summarily summoning the Joint Chiefs to a policy review brainstorming conclave, calling off a bombing raid, revising a military spending bill, writing or rewriting a speech. You know, big stuff...

Have you ever taken any action based on anything Showalter or Ichic have ever published in this forum?

I cannot speak for gisterme, but my answer is yes. As long, that is, as posting a reply counts as taking an action.

I state that recapturing some past importance (real of imagined) is Robert's mission, and I state it as a fact, which is borne out by his refusal to respond to Will's request by providing the specific quotes that led him to conclude that gisterme is some important liar. If Robert were being forthright with us, that would have been the first thing he'd do after being asked why he is stalking gisterme...

...there is substantial reason to believe that gisterme is closely connected to the Bush administration

I'm sure you have your reasons for repeatedly stating that, Robert. But those "reasons" are hardly substantial. I think the same character flaw that leads you to ingest poison from The Guardian also provides "substance" to your reasons for thinking that gisterme is aggressively lying to you about his position, and about his reasons for posting here.

I can only imagine your consternation after visiting PostsBy_Gisterme.htm at Robert's site. I'd be pretty creeped out too.

"I will certainly not impersonate the President or any other government official. "

Woah - I was only kidding, gisterme. I'd never encourage dishonesty anyhow...

" Su was plucked from her go-go bar one night and whisked off to Zurich by a wealthy Swiss. The relationship failed after a couple of years, mostly because Su was bored out of her mind (loathes skiing, hates snow, happy if she never sees a mountain, or Zurich, again), but her paramour gave her the seed money for her thriving business ...

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0904-11.htm

an article you'll love - full of all the requisite vitriol and unsupported assertions, and conformingly light on facts.

George W. Bush confronts one of the most difficult choices of his life: Should he turn Iraq over to the UN and thus save the lives of our men and women in uniform, but lose the oil, the campaign cash, and probably the election?..

I don't buy into everything he says, by a long shot. But it is interesting how he thinks - and feels - and there is real outrage behind it - some of it justified...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html

As the Guardian of The Guardian, I hope you're happy with them. The above article epitomizes the reason The Guardian is nearly universally regarded as a fiction rag...

Come on, now! We need someone to be the important person who's ear it is so important for Robert to have. Else he'll keep boring us with the details of the "case" for your importance...

"...Gisterme often wants a reader to think he's an important personage..."

Gisterme:

"Not so, Robert. It's you who want people to think that gisterme is an important personage. After all you're the one making such assertions...

I conclude that Gisterme is simply sharing what he thinks and feels. Rshow may believe Gisterme is "working hard" on this thread, but that assertion pegs my BS meter...

...the US administration believes it can operate outside the rules when it comes to weapons of mass destruction...

"Outside the rules" presumably means "ignoring the dictates of governments (Tasmanian, Australian) other than the US's". Is there any earthly reason the US administration would believe otherwise?..

Seriously, I'm all in favor of not worrying and being happy, but also feel that such luxuries must be earned by hard work and concerted effort.

If I may, the conclusion is:

A typical bred&born American (is expected to) look to the easy explanation for things that are hard to comprehend.

Well, "Don't worry - Be happy" breed should thank their Life-stile, Schools and the Media for such an "achievement".

Don't know if "care" is the right word. I'm interested partly because your perspective is so different from that of a typical bred&born American. I disagree with most of your take on things, but strive to understand how the negativity that pervades your posts becomes part and parcel of a person...

Apparently you paid enough attention to notice the difference.

While prefering the UNDERSTANDING, I still take it as a good sign:)

jorian319 . I suspect you're a hypocrite. God matters a lot to me...

I guess that's a good thing?

And someone might care enough to do so - if some key issues needed to be proved -if "connection of the dots" on a basis involving a lot of statistics was useful...

rshow55 - 03:12pm Jul 19, 2003 EST (# 13050 of... by gisterme - Jul 22, 03 (#13082 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.V0BPbUmKLLm.1016010@.f28e622/14761

jorian319 - 01:28pm Jul 21, 2003 EST (# 13068 of...

rshow55 - 10:12am Mar 17, 2003 EST (# 10120 of... by gisterme - Mar 17, 03 (#10121 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.V0BPbUmKLLm.1016010@.f28e622/11567

mazza9 - 10:34pm Mar 17, 2003 EST (# 10138 of ...)...

Spot on, Coop!

Almarst , you're frustrated and angry - I feel that way, too, often enough - and a lot of bad things have happened that shouldn't have

Showalter, Almarst is not a reasonable person. I have encountered such types on several occasions. I call them "professional victims"...

But to be "right" for some purposes, you have to be "wrong" for others - and it helps to consider both the purposes and the posters. Roughly by order of number of posts, here are the posters on this thread...

jorian319

But how do you really feel?

I wanted to eliminate in Robert's mind any lingering impression that I was not forthcoming and fully honest. I think I've said my peace...

But how do you really feel?

Fred -

Well said! This can indeed be fun, and for me that is the beginning and the end of it...

If you follow this board...

I hate to have to be the bearer of bad news, Robert, but - as Will, Fred, Bbbuck, Gisterme and I have already pointed out, NOBODY "FOLLOWS" THIS BOARD! ...mainly because it doesn't go anywhere!

Sorry about your 'relative' difficulties.

I had some pretty good reasons to think I was dealing with Clinton, or somebody close to him, on Sept 25, 2000. I didn't say I was certain, but that I had "pretty good reasons."

Would those "pretty good reasons" be ...

"...I'm now convinced that Gisterme is indeed GWB. The evidence - he repeatedly mis-spelled "helicopter"..."

Damn! Heads will roll for this!..

I have been making an assumption that people on the UN Security Council looked here from time to time...

Yeah, and I've always assumed that everyone here is automatically featured in a nightly prime-time network human interest psychodrama.

Sheesh, Robert, get a grip...

What Fred said. Bravo.

I'm now convinced that Gisterme is indeed GWB...

Sheee - hitt!..

jorian319 - 10:56pm May 26, 2003 EST (# 12072 of 12076) http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.V0BPbUmKLLm.1016095@.f28e622/13697

"Robert, are you not fearful that when the CIA figgers out how much lchick knows about their inner workings, and particularly the scam to infiltrate NYT, they might take her out? Or ferret her away in some secret room to work on their latest encryption scheme?..

Hard to digest your post Poster!

Am I "Mr. Poster"??????!??..

If you thought you had good reasons to think that, if you could solved problems assigned to you - that you'd promised to "do your damndest to solve" - that you would be able to save millions of lives - and solve the key problems that have frustrated the hopes of many Americans since WWII - and you thought that, with brilliant help from lchic - you had cracked the main problems - wouldn't you work at it?..

Speaking of Showalter...

"...I guess that's to be expected from someone gullible enough to convince himself that the President of the United States has nothing better to do than post here as Gisterme..."

Thanks jorian. I think Robert just claims I'm somebody he thinks is important in order to stroke his own ego...

I guess that's to be expected from someone gullible enough to convince himself that the President of the United States has nothing better to do than post here as Gisterme.

I hope you're appropriately embarrassed.

It got understood and overexposed.

How about a little patience for the Guardian of The Guardian?

liquid_paper4 - 03:15pm Jul 2, 2003 EST (# 3175 of 3177) Bob Novak on CNN: "Democrats are trying to steal this election by counting votes."

Looks like I got to that Dumb Bunker named aka Jorian. When I go after a fascist, I get them. My family has a history of that...

Why would you want to bury good quality hay?

Who said anything about "bury"? I'm just sick of paying $6.50/70lb small bale!..

Jorian -- expose yourself

I love it when you talk dirty.

--- To the world

To the world I am but another number among the oprressed masses.

Who are you?..

IIRC Kalter was banned at one point over a vitriolic exchange where he was not even at fault.

When I was a kid, my parents were good friends with Isaac Don Levine. He and his wife were often over for dinner...

Is that you Pugsley???

No, but it looks vaguely familiar... hmmm...

All 12,000+ posts in this forum are the same two hundred posts, being recycled again and again. Nobody has noticed, nor will they, since the only people who read them are the ones who write them.

This board is like a rerun of the Addam's family

Eggs Ackley.

"For once, Robert, I agree that it is worthwhile belaboring the obvious. For all of us who have endorsed this horrible action, there can be no other vindication.

jorian319 - 10:38am Apr 2, 2003 EST (# 10960 http://images.radcity.net/5149/359372.mp3

"How much better can it get?..

" The latest vogue in Washington is the proposition that it really doesn't matter whether Saddam Hussein maintained an arsenal of unconventional weapons in recent years. American troops may not have uncovered any evidence of the weapons of mass destruction the Bush administration was warning about, the argument goes...

to jorian319:

The term 'The Poster' usually employed by lchic (alias looneychic, lupeychic, lunarchic, posts on the Guardian forums as bunnymuffin) refers to anyone lchic is currently engaged with or is currently taunting...

Jorian319 - "enquiring minds" may only guess - but the NYT could easily find out - if it does not know now. Might be plural - posters .

Oh, come on, Robert!..